Wii owners are irrelevant to ‘enthusiast sites’
Wednesday, September 26th, 2007 at 11:55am by Jack
Via the NeoGAF forums, courtesy of HylianTom, we have news today that 1up.com is taking a calculated risk and will not be focusing on Nintendo or those people who own its systems.
You can judge the grammatically challenged exchange (not because of Tom, as you’ll see) for yourself after the jump.
The exchange:
Over at NeoGAF this morning, I read an article about the Dewey’s Adventure review over at 1Up.com.
It didn’t take long for someone to suggest that 1Up hire people who are actually interested in Wii games. I had to throw my two bits in:
“Naaah.. that would make too much sense. I think it would be a fiscally wiser decision for 1Up/Ziff-Davis to continue ignoring/alienating next-gen’s largest userbase.”
This actually prompted a response from Luke Smith himself:
“Wait a second, I thought the Wii was expanding the Market and selling to alpha moms? I don’t think alpha moms are driving traffic to enthusiast websites. Now if the Wii is just selling to the hardcore, then your point is valid, but Nintendo’s market-broadening efforts and success aren’t exactly catered to by the enthusiast press. Some website or start-up should absolutely try and capitalize on that expansion.
“See, even if Ziff was alienating/ignoring the Wii’s userbase (and their [sic] not), but the Wii’s market-fresh expanded userbase doesn’t know they [1up] exist, it doesn’t matter and your attempted point becomes fanboy nonsense.”
Funny that my post elicited a response from him.
It seems to me that, in making fundamental assumptions about the Wii demographic’s composition,
1Up is taking a calculated risk with such a move. (Kinda like many third parties, now that I think about it..)
What we can conclude from this is that 1up.com does not consider Nintendo’s Wii or its expanded audience to be an integral part of gaming. I can say this because of the site’s own tagline: “Where gamers call home.” Can you imagine a legitimate news agency ignoring an entire sect of people simply because they’re new and different? Can you imagine them trying to sustain that strategy if someone who covers the same industry starts covering that group of people?
The thing is, people who have not gamed before, or who were put off from it for the past five years or so, are in fact searching for information on gaming today. Google traffic reflects this, as do small town newspaper articles posted online, etc etc etc. And their numbers increase every day. That a company or web site would actively and condescendingly brag that it is purposefully not addressing them is too much for words. I’d say it’s sad, but it’s kind of funny, so I won’t.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
I agree with Luke Smith.
Nintendo’s strategy has been to create new gamers with games like Wii Sports and Wii Play. These people don’t want to read Halo reviews. The type of gamer that Nintendo is creating probably doesn’t even know what Halo is.
Now, I don’t think it’s a good idea for them to stop covering Wii entirely, but as a regular listener to their podcast, I can tell you that they focus on Wii less, and this makes sense. Most of the Wii games are not targeted toward them. Wii Sports is not targeted toward the Final Fantasy gamer, and Wii Play is not targeted toward the Call of Duty gamer.
Wii is not aiming at the dedicated 20-hour-a-week gamer. 1-UP is. They’re different markets, and 1-UP should cover Wii for whenever the two markets overlap (Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros). That’s maybe about 40% of what Nintendo is putting out there (and that’s a big maybe) so effectively, Nintendo should lose about 60% of it’s mindshare to enthusiest gaming coverage.
Which, if I’m doing my math correctly, makes an enthusiast site cover
43% PS3
43% 360
13% Wii
Personally, I don’t know why you care, Jack, since you already said previously that you don’t follow enthusiast coverage because it’s not covering what you’re interested in.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Also, where does it actually say that 1UP is cutting the Nintendo coverage? That’s not in that thread anywhere.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
That’s a good write-up MG. To the point and easy to follow.
Someone give him a medal.
Oh, OK comment of the week then! :o)
September 26th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I second DrewMG’s “comment of the week” nomination. Well said.
Btw, Luke Smith doesn’t work for 1UP anymore. He’s employed by Bungie.
On a larger scale, I’d say enthusiast sites only exist because said enthusiasts eat, sleep, and breath a particular hobby. While I casually play and like board games, I don’t visit any board game community sites. The same could be said of casual Wii owners like my in-laws.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
1up has always seemed to be primarily xbox 360 focused. They like games like gears of war, mass effect, & shadowrun. Basically if its got shiny shaders & guns they’ll praise it. They claim to be an enthusiast site for the hardcore gamer(where gamers call home), but they seem so closed minded. How can anyone claim to be a gaming enthusiast and only appreciate few types of games. In my opinion real gaming enthusiasts play a variety of games, not just standard genres. I enjoy the typical fps, action, racer, or rpg type game.
I love visually groundbreaking games like Crysis, it’s my most anticipated pc game this year though my rig can’t even muster half the power needed to play it. I Also like a few games coming to 360 & one on the PS3(MGS4). But like a lot of long time video game players, I have gotten a little bored with familiar gameplay coupled with new graphics. The wii does more than expand the market with “casual games” & soccer moms. Its also expanding the way we interact with our games. People, gamers want new entertainment experiences. Rapid Wii & DS sales and Sony’s unflattering attempt at emulating the Wiimote’s unique abilities, by slapping a motion sensor into their standard control at the last minute, is indicative of this. If 1up, developers or any other part of the industry continue to ignore the Wii’s growing userbase they’ll be ignoring, what will eventually, evolve into a wider part of the future gaming demographic.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
It seems that those agreeing with Luke Smith conveniently overlook one small thing: there’s not really a problem with 1Up primarily catering to “hardcore” enthusiasts - but 1Up should at least be up-front about it.
They claim to cover video gaming in general, so if I go there I expect equitable reporting (in both tone & volume) on video gaming of ALL types - not just the staff’s particular tastes. It’s more an issue of professionalism and honesty in labeling.
When I open a magazine that centers around cinema in general, I expect all genres to be covered equitably - comedies, dramas, documentaries, etc. If I were to pick-up a magazine purporting to cover film in general only to find that its editors prefer to cover one genre much more than the others, I’d perhaps be a bit miffed that I wasted my time expecting more general/equitable coverage. Same standard applies for magazines/sites that claim to cover the wide industry that is “video gaming.”
I don’t think that journalistic candor/accuracy in labeling is so unreasonable a request.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
It’s entirely possible that 1UP focuses on shiny games with shiny guns because that’s the largest portion of games out there, unfortunately.
I consider myself the kind of enthusiast that you mentioned - my favorite games are NCAA Football, ICO (PS2), Zelda (take your pick), Half Life (take your pick), and probably something along the lines of RE(make) and Eternal Darkness. But I also really like F.E.A.R., Metroid (take your pick) and yes, to a lesser extent, Halo.
Variety is the spice.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
i havent read everythign on this post- haven’t the time. but it’s interesting and i think it makes sens for hardcore sites to de-emphasize the wii if they think a wii audience doesn’t care. still, i think there are probably new wii people interested in a wii site that addresses their mainstreamness. Imagine if 1-up had a semi-rebranded section for the wii that was less gamer and more grandma? i think there’s some blue ocean there.
(sry for the convenient use of ‘hrdcre’ here, not trying to get into the whole ‘what is xxx’ debate, just using convenient labels.)
September 26th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Here’s my disagreement with’s DrewMG’s point though:
You say that the Wii isn’t targeting at the 20-hour-a-week gamer… isn’t the Wii targeting to be part of that 20 hours though? Maybe not all of it, but part of it? If you are really “hardcore” (god am I sick of that term) you should really own atleast 2/3 consoles. If you can only buy one, the Wii is most likely not it, and I get that. But is the Wii not as worthy of a gamer’s (or a website’s) time because it doesn’t attempt to dominate it?
Isn’t the Wii supposed to be targeting everyone? Isn’t the subset of gaming enthusiasts/hardcore/whatever part of everyone? Or do they just refuse to give any attention to Wii Sports or Elebits or Dewy’s Adventure because ‘teh kiddie’?
September 26th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Well how much is there to talk about when it comes to Wii Sports, really?
Personally, I would love it if 1UP Yours spent time hyping Galaxy and reviewing Prime 3, but they don’t. At least, not much. I agree that this is a fault of theirs.
But what is the percentage of listeners to that podcast (once again - I don’t read the site, so I can’t speak to that) really care about Dewy? I’m a staunch Wii Supporter and I don’t care about that game. Maybe I’ll rent it, but there’s tons of content over on 360 right now between Halo, and Mass Effect, and brand new games hitting XBLA every other week… that yeah, I can totally understand them not covering Wii very much.
Very few enthusiast site editors are thrilled with Wii, because they don’t feel Nintendo is trying to get their money. Who can blame them? Nintendo isn’t, about 60% of the time.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
I have to disagree. The Wii does target all gamers. The only problem is that no site seems to believe that a ‘hardcore’ gamer would choose a Wii over the 360/PS3. If they have a Wii, they probably have a 360/PS3, and are more interested in games on those systems. That seems to be the mentality.
Anyone who actually thinks-like Shane from 1up- that the only people buying Wii’s are alpha moms and granparents is very close minded.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
“Very few enthusiast site editors are thrilled with Wii, because they don’t feel Nintendo is trying to get their money. Who can blame them? Nintendo isn’t, about 60% of the time.”
I think you hit the nail right on the head there. A lot of these guys feel spurned by Nintendo for their choice not to cater to one audience. Read IGN’s Mark Bozon’s review of Phantom Hourglass for instance. It is as if he didn’t want to like the game. And despite the fact that it was inclusive and still apparently very fun, the review reads like a guy who was friends with a cute girl in middle school, and now in high school shes blossomed and the guys on the football team and so on are starting to get her attention. He’s very happy for her… but what about him?
I think Nintendo still has plenty of time and attention for those who want it. But it’s not like we can’t be friends anymore because Nintendo has new friends.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Personally, I don’t think it’s closed minded - I think it’s accurate.
Just my opinion.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
And, from what I have seen in your posts, you seem to be close minded.
Thus, it would be accurate, in your opinion.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
“Personally, I don’t think it’s closed minded - I think it’s accurate.”
A very telling statement. Wow.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Well, let me clarify. I don’t think the last part of DonWii’s post was accurate, the part about the only people buying Wii’s are alphamoms and grandmothers.
“he only problem is that no site seems to believe that a ‘hardcore’ gamer would choose a Wii over the 360/PS3.”
This is what I think is true 90% of the time. If by hardcore gamer, you mean someone who games 15-20 hours a week… what is it that you could play on the Wii for 20 hours a week? You would have finished every major game released on the Wii within a week, and major games only come out for the Wii maybe once a month.
I don’t think it’s closed minded at all to think that the 20 hour/week gamer who owns a Wii along with another system probably spends more time playing/reading about the other system.
Call me closed minded all you want, but that logic makes a lot of sense to me.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
DrewMG makes another excellent point: Many of the games published for Wii right now can’t generate deeper coverage precisely because these games are of the “pick up and play and finish quickly” kind. Plus, more than half the fun in good Wii games, including Metroid Prime 3, stems from the use of the controller… how can you give a deep review on that?? I also agree with HylianTom in that while there is nothing wrong with 1UP dropping the Wii games reviews a bit, they should be more UPfront about it…
Oh, and I second the motion to nominate DrewMG’s first comment as Comment of the Week!
September 26th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
If you ask me, it makes no sense at all for 1up to be close-minded about the Wii. As HylianTom said, if you say you’re going to cover the entire “video games industry” and only truly cover the part that you prefer, then you aren’t telling the whole truth. There’s nothing wrong with a site being focused only on “hardcore” material, but only as long as that’s what they advertise.
Additionally, who’s to say that the only people playing Wii are “alpha moms” and regualr people and the such? I know plenty of people who would call themselves gamers who have a Wii (and ordinarily one other system - usually next-gen - to compliment what the Wii doesn’t generally offer). That’s like assuming that, for such a large userbase, the PS2 was a hardcore-only system (which would be entirely incorrect).
September 26th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Wow! I can’t believe that sites like this really believe that everyone buying the Wii is a casual gamer. Nintendo has a large, faithful fan base. These people are definitely “hardcore” or traditional gamers if you will. I’m a mix of both. I love games like Brain Age, but I love Metroid and Resident Evil as well. I spend a lot of money on games, but basically 1Up is saying I’m not important because I only own a Wii and a DS. I’m betting there are many more players out there just like me.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
To that, I will say that could be the case for the 360 thus far, since it has a plethora of more games. PS3 has not fared any better, really.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Personally, I upgraded from the PS2 to the Wii. Did not own a Gamecube. I don’t plan on getting a 360, but may consider getting a PS3 if KH3 is released.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
I don’t think they’re saying you’re not important, Jeff, I think they’re just saying you’re in the minority.
And Don, you have a good point about PS3, but gamers who are willing to spend the amount of money Sony is asking for to get a video game system are going to be very emotionally invested in that system, I would think.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
I’m in the same boat as Jeff French. I only have Wii, and I put in about 12-15 hours a week. Coupled with the DS though, that could easily be 20.
Don’t get me wrong, theres plenty of 360 games I’d like to play (Dead Rising, Bioshock, Fight Night, and Smackdown vs Raw stand out immediately) but I can’t find enough spare/free time to dedicate for a second console. And at the end of the day, the need for me to be able to play Nintendo’s exclusives far outweighs the possibility of owning only one of the other systems. I think the group of people who are like-minded is considerable.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
I think we’re all missing the obvious conclusion: 1up is going to be deemphasizing Wii because they (or their parent company) want to spin off a site catering more towards the soccer-mom/casual gamers crowd. They’ll get their “core gamer” cred for neglecting the Wii and still make their bucks under a new alias.
Clearly, the problem with using the tageline “Where gamers call home” is the vastly different definitions being applied to the word “gamers.”
September 26th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
i cant figure what site sucks more gamespot or 1up.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
“1up is going to be deemphasizing Wii because they (or their parent company) want to spin off a site catering more towards the soccer-mom/casual gamers crowd.”
To that, I bring back something Blake said earlier:
“While I casually play and like board games, I don’t visit any board game community sites. The same could be said of casual Wii owners like my in-laws.”
Do “casual” gamers care enough to visit 1Up-Lite?
September 26th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
i add myself to wii only owner, and anybody thinking wii is not getting enough dedicated gamer games is not paying attention. theres quite a few mature rated games coming out in japan at least. true that american sites arent expected to talk about such games, but america is also slowly getting those types of games that are targeted to people who play games alot.
its called patience, all kinds of games are coming.
i think drews first post is wrong, and not worthy of anything, but sadly this is that one post that i cant make as long as i want because i am pressed for time.
i just wanted mainly to say that i am with hyliantom, 1up needs to be completely up front that they are not a site that is too concerned with Wii audience, or they need to recruit people that enjoy Wii games more. Matt complains about Wii and Nintendo all the time but at least he has few problems with handling motion controls.
(dont like matt too much myself, but still better coverage then 1up gives)
It’s because 1up is popular that people expect certain things from them and are disappointed that 1up cant live up to their advertising.
One last point is that new gamers, even parents go online to learn about Wii.
I was in line waiting for a Wii early on and was talking to 2 fathers who had gone to nintendos website and saw those videos nintendo puts up of people playing the wii, and found it interesting.
I imagine that f they know how to use the internet their kids might, it might be their first system. either the parent and/or kid(s) will want to go online to find gaming info, and gaming sites should be up to the task of welcoming those new gamers.
these people can easily grow into more mature games, and if 1up doesnt get on the ball now, will they be caught with their pants down when the Wii is getting the most games targeted at dedicated gamer audience, which is already starting to happen and will continue to solidify within the year? (Wii gets more new game announcements then both other systems each month, more game releases already each month then either other system, and its not all mini/kids games either)
September 26th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
The Wii is still hard to get. You’d have to be dedicated to get a Wii with the demand outstripping the supply. My guess is that most Wii owners are still core gamers, not new converts. They can’t get one yet!
But so much of this thread is based on guess work. You guess that core gamers aren’t playing the Wii. Why the new converts are buying Metroid and Zelda, I don’t know. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Resident Evil?
We don’t have any data to base this on. We don’t know. It’s really that simple. To say that it’s mom’s buying the Wii is silly. Oh, they are trying. I see them eyeing the Nintendo shelf all the time. But they don’t find them, because they are rarely there.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
There are many good points in here on both sides. I wanted to introduce a new one:
A casual gamer may not follow every trace of video game news like some of us. But while many don’t educate themselves before a purchase, some do. I just looked on Yahoo Answers for casual gamers asking where to find game reviews. One listed IGN, Wikipedia, 1UP, GameSpot, and Game Informer. But if these sites primarily focus on reviews for more serious gamers, then where are casual gamers trying to educate themselves supposed to find reviews that cater to them?
September 26th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Scratch the new point mention. I had read up to Waltermh’s post before commenting. He makes a lot of great points.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
I, and many commenters on this site, are getting sick of that word “hardcore”. “…Now if the Wii is just selling to the hardcore…” At Infendo, we are hardcore. Specific software doesn’t make someone hardcore, hardware does. Wii/PS3/X360/DS, etc = hardware. We are hardcore.
September 26th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
I will point out however, Dewy’s adventure received a 7.4 rating. Lair (PS3) from the same website received 6.3. At least they are not rating ONLY graphics. Although they did rate the 360’s downloadable ‘Space Giraffe’ a 7.2… Possibly they rate for the price of the game?
Like we have pointed out SO many times on Infendo, the current review system must go.
September 26th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Well, I guess that we Wii owners are just gonna have to make sure to never go to 1up again and instead go to IGN. It’s better anyways.
September 26th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
For what it’s worth, you will never again (don’t recall if I have in the past) use the word hardcore. That’s why I specifically said “15-20 hour/week gamer” which is a much more appropriate word.
Also, you’ll never hear me say “mature” game, because people tend to think of many things associated with the word “mature” that are really aimed at the 16-18 crowd, not the 20+ crowd.
Anyone who thinks that Mortal Kombat is a mature game needs to re-examine the meaning of that word.
The word “casual” I think still has decent meaning in the commonly used context, because it is what it is - someone who games occasionally, but doesn’t take the hobby too seriously.
Maybe this is just semantics, but when many of us see those words, we look to argue before we even read and understand the comment.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
1UP is not a new or amateur site. However, it would seem to me that publishing openly biased content bring into question their reliability, professionalism, and journalistic integrity.
Although I knew that some 1UP staff had a bias towards/against certain systems from listening to the 1UP Yours podcast, I still had higher expectations than the ridiculous fanboy comments described in this article.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
For what it’s worth, this entire argument is null and void, because the author (Jack) assumed that Luke Smith spoke on behalf of the entire staff of 1UP, which isn’t possible because Luke Smith doesn’t even work for them anymore, as Blake mentioned.
Besides, to take a comment in a forum thread and spin it into a statement like “we have news today that 1up.com is taking a calculated risk and will not be focusing on Nintendo or those people who own its systems” is pretty sensationalist, if I may say so.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
I think John Davison saw the writing on the wall when he left 1up to start his own family friendly game site.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
I own Dewy’s Adventure, and in my opinion, it’s very much a game for hardcore gamers. Hardcore platformer gamers. Noobs and casuals would get eaten alive by Dewy’s Adventure.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
…Luke Smith doesn’t even work for them anymore…
Thanks for pointing that out, as I missed that comment previously.
…to take a comment in a forum thread and spin it into a statement … is pretty sensationalist…
Ah, but I expect that type of bias and sansationalism from a fansite such as Infendo. 1UP is supposed to be more than just a “fansite” for a single console, however. If the site wants to maintain a professional appearance then their staff does need to be held to a higher standard than fanboys in the forums.
And one last comment: I think the “mindshare” numbers from the first post are bogus. They don’t take into account market share. Assuming that Wii and 360 both have about 40% market share, and the PS3 about 20%, the numbers should change to something like…
53% 360
26% PS3
21% Wii
Frankly, I think that makes sense too because the XBox 360 has been around longer and has better games coming out RIGHT NOW than the Wii and PS3 combined. (Anecdotal evidence: Bioshock and Halo 3.)
September 26th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Are you using North American sales figures, or Worldwide sales figures? In the case of 1UP, the NA figures are more appropriate. According to the most recent NPD, the sales in NA break down as such:
Wii: 4M (33%)
360: 6.3M (52%)
PS3: 1.75M (15%)
Total: 12.05
Now, if only 40% of Nintendo’s products are servicing the target audience of 1UPs coverage, then the remaining 60% will be split between 360 and PS3.
Wii: 13.2%
360: 61.9 %
PS3: 24.9 %
Now, you may say that these numbers don’t include DS or PSP. I will now revise them to do so. We’ll assume that the handheld market is given about 50% of the attention of the console market.
DS:12.7M (60%)
PSP: 8.3M (40%)
Now, taking these shares and fitting them into a 100 point scale, we get
Nintendo: 28.8%
Sony: 29.9%
Microsoft: 41.2%
We still see Nintendo sitting in third. Now, like I said before, I’d like to see them start focusing on upcoming Wii titles as well, but there are more enthusiast-oriented titles coming to the other systems in the near future than on Wii. Off the top of my head, 360 has Eternal Sonata, Halo 3, Mass Effect, Assassin’s Creed, Ninja Gaiden 2, Call of Duty 4, Resident Evil 5, Blue Dragon. PS3 has a few big RPGS coming. Wii has Smash Bros, Mario Galaxy, Prime 3, Medal of Honor… Batt. Wars 2… there just aren’t as many games coming to Wii in the future as there are for 360 that sites like 1UP are interested in - that fit into the 40% or so of games that Nintendo is targeting toward the audience of a site like 1UP.
Look, I’m not saying it isn’t disappointing. I would like more coverage for Wii games as well, but the difference is that I understand why it’s not there. It’s not some unspoken jealousy or bias inherent in the enthusiast community. The products coming from Nintendo largely aren’t aimed at them.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Also, it should be noted above that my calculations don’t include PS2, and that’s still a sizable and noteworthy userbase in terms of mindshare.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
ONE LAST CONSECUTIVE COMMENT: Another thing to consider is that Nintendo is much less open regarding the development of their titles than third party publishers are, so there’s less to discuss on websites like 1UP. Lowers the percentages for Nintendo even more. Nintendo all but discourages video game journalists from discussing their products by being secretive about them until just before they come out.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:11 am
“Casual games” is the simple ‘buzz word’ for people to use so they don’t have to think too hard about the Wii’s success. Gamecube, whose sales matches the Xbox but was always quite profitable, got called “kiddie” so people didn’t have to think about Gamecube seriously. Had they done so, they would not have written off Nintendo and its “revolution” so easily.
The ‘pick up and play’ nature for short amounts of time is not ‘casual games’ (often said with a sneer). What we are seeing is the return of arcade-like gameplay. Wii Sports could work and sell very well in the arcade. So could Carnival Games. Remember, the expanded audience isn’t just new players, it is also players who got bored of gaming long ago (people who stopped playing in the early 90s or earlier).
When the NES came out, it received similar reactions from the gaming press at the time (many computer magazines). Big, huge epic role playing games were king then so what use was Super Mario Brothers to them? But while those gamers passed away, their memory only remembered by old farts like me, the kids growing up on the NES have now hilariously fit the role of those prior NES mocking gamers. Wii is the big hit among kids today and the favored of the new rising generation. They don’t see this. And they don’t see a generation growing up with motion controls who will always see the ‘classic controller’ as something Dad plays.
Anyway, why is it that every game journalist is a young male in his 20s or 30s? They might have one or two young kids. The demographics of the game journalists, with the rise of Wii success, will become increasingly out of touch with the market. While 1up says the expanded audience will not read their site (have they tried to reach the expanded audience? No. They simply don’t want to), another site will be able to get their attention.
Crystal clear in my memory were the analysts saying that the NES had “its last good year” (this was said every year) and the more technological computers would squash the NES as they did with Atari as well as game journalists saying then, “Why bother covering NES games? Kids mostly play those. People who buy magazines play computer games. Kids and parents don’t buy magazines.” Then came Nintendo Power that became huge by activating that new audience (with magazines since then trying to emulate that success).
As you can see, Wii success has far reaching disrupting actions. Even the face of game journalism will end up being re-arranged in the end. What a new world we are coming to!
DrewMG- You cannot cherry pick your markets. You compare by worldwide sales unless you are lacking data from a territory. Just focusing on America, Xbox 360’s biggest market where it has been on the market for 12 months, smells like a little spin on your part. Call a spade a spade. The fact that the Wii eventually will surpass the Xbox 360 soon in America despite it being 360’s biggest market and having a full additional year shows just how poorly the 360 is faring in the grand scheme of things.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:38 am
Why can’t I “cherry pick” my market? 1UP is an American site, focusing on American games. They don’t discuss import games at length, so obviously their mindshare would be largely based on what American games are selling.
Do you deny that casual gamers exist? Are you really so far gone that you will not admit that there are a large number of Wii owners out there who don’t want to put many hours into video games, and only bought the system on the strength of Wii Sports? Yes, it may be a buzz word, but as I demonstrated above, it’s one of the accurate ones. You say it’s the return of arcade style play, but people don’t go to the arcade every day. People go there once every few months, maybe every few weeks at best. These are not the video games people want to play all the time. They play them casually. Occasionally. The type of gamer that Nintendo is creating, is not one who anticipates future releases, and visits blogs like these.
Gamecube got called “Kiddie” because of the way it was marketed and because of the type of software that was largely available on the system. A much larger portion of gamecube titles were all-ages types of games than Xbox. You can blame third parties for this, but you cannot deny that it is true. This is why Nintendo was labled “kiddie”; because to a large extent the label fit.
You say that game journalism will change, but what you do not seem to understand is that it’s not the game journalists who will go through your so called revolution. The products that they truly want - the Halo games and the Final Fantasy games - they’re not done making those. Not by a long shot. You continue to predict the end of these types of games, but just as you continue to say there is no evidence that Wii sales are slowing, there is no evidence that these types of games are on the way out. They’ve been around as long as video games have been around. They’ll continue to be here. And as long as they are, there will be enthusiast journalism to cover them. And as long as there are games magazines like EGM and Game Informer, these will be more associated with video games than whatever you expect the “new wave” of gaming journalism to be. People at large are not going to re-associate what they think of as video games, because by and large there are still far more people who will not buy Wiis than people who will.
You say that game journalists are males, age 20 to 30 with maybe 1 or 2 kids, and that these types of gamers will become out of touch with the gaming community, but the gamers making up the expanded community that you speak of are never going to have the level of interest to seek out a website, a podcast, a magazine. They are not going to buy the new Metroid game,and they are not going to buy the new Halo game. They are not going to go to video game websites, post on blogs, and give more than a few minutes a week worth of thought to video games. They own a Wii, they think it’s fun, but they also think Horseshoes is fun, and they don’t spend much time thinking about that either. These are not the consumers that will drive the industry. They may (and that is still a big “may” at this point) make up the bulk, but they will never care enough about video games to convince journalists that there is money to be gotten from them. Why should 1UP cater to them?
September 27th, 2007 at 12:44 am
And for the record, your attempt at saying that Super Mario Bros. was coming along at a time when the computer RPGS were king is pretty flawed, since Super Mario Bros. is really just a natural progression of some of the most popular video games ever - Pac Man, Defender, Donkey Kong, and Space Invaders. The transition to NES wasn’t nearly as “revolutionary” as you make it out to be.
September 27th, 2007 at 2:12 am
1up is the hardcore site, that’s why most other magazines hate them because they try to look cool posting on blogs and shit like that, while most site stay in their forums. I’m surprised Infendo still cares what these guys think. After an average of 5.3 for Wii games, that they don’t even care to play as they showed with Mario Strikers with a reviews that seems pulled out of the air. I sure hope they can keep these idiocrisy going for them. I don’t think Sony or Microsoft is making them the Official Magazine/Website for their consoles, which is something they want. Too bad they aready have official stuff.
Funny how this stuff finally pops out days after Halo 3 was released with them giving it a perfect 10…
September 27th, 2007 at 2:26 am
Is Infendo.com trying to reach for that new expanded audience?
September 27th, 2007 at 7:39 am
I’m calling B.S. on the old chestnut of a defense, “Nintendo doesn’t give journalists enough information.” Click through a week’s worth of news stories posted here at Infendo or over at GoNintendo - it should be quite evident that there’s plenty of Nintendo-related news to report. That Infendo, GoNintendo, and TheWiire can consistently produce weekly podcasts shows that this “there’s nothing to discuss” defense doesn’t hold water. It’s a cheap excuse, and any journalist relying on it makes me wonder.. is s/he lazy, or biased, or both?
In fact, I’m not surprised that these Nintendo-themed podcasts and websites have found strong audiences. Coincidence? With the possible exception of IGN, it’s not like these audiences are being catered-to elsewhere.
September 27th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Sure, there’s Nintendo related news, but that’s different than information about upcoming titles that comes right from Nintendo. How much information do we have about Mario Galaxy? When was the last time we saw new video footage?
Smash Bros Dojo is a great step in the right direction, but that’s it.
What about Battallian Wars 2? This game is virtually invisible, because we don’t know anything about it. How are the enthusiasts supposed to talk about it?
And while Medal of Honor is certainly a step in the right direction, the enthusiast press has already played this game a million times over on PS1, PS2, Xbox, PS3, and Xbox 360. The fact that Nintendo now offers this experience on their console makes them roll their eyes and say “finally”, not jump for joy.
There is absolutely mountains of evidence that what Nintendo does doesn’t appeal to the enthusiast gamer as much as what MS and Sony do. Everything from hardware design to software design supports this thesis.
Nintendo walks their own path. This is something Nintendo fans have prided themselves on for a very long time. Why, then, do they get upset when those those that walk the “path well worn” don’t see things the same way?
I think it’s absolutely great that there are Nintendo podcasts out there. I have my own personal favorite (PLUG: Radio Free Nintendo, hosted at NintendoWorldReport.com!) and I listen every week. But It’s not the same discussion as what’s happening on 1 UP Yours, Evil Avatar Radio, and so on. It’s not worse, or better. It’s different.
September 27th, 2007 at 8:47 am
Well, this discussion is going in circles, and if I don’t stop hitting refresh on this page eventually I’ll probably go crazy. Fun topic, guys. I’m going to bow out.
September 27th, 2007 at 9:15 am
Nintendo may do all sorts of things differently, but in the end all of these things don’t make them any less of a gaming company than the others.. which leads back to my original point: if 1Up is going to call themselves a general gaming site, they need to cover ALL gaming. Either that, or be honest about it and advertise/label appropriately.
Thanks for the link to NWR.. I’m taking a peek at it now. Looks really nice! How have I not found this site yet?
September 27th, 2007 at 9:20 am
It used to be called PlanetGamecube.com. You have been to it under that name.
September 27th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Sorry, you “MAY” have been to it under that name.
September 27th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Good correction on the “mindshare” numbers. It probably is better to use North American numbers when talking about 1UP’s target market…
But oddly, gaming coverage rarely seems to reflect those percentages - with or without handheld coverage included - as Sony seems to be commanding a lion’s share of enthusiast media attention despite a lack of strong software up to this point. (After sitting through the hype machine and prerelease fanboy praise for several lackluster PS3 titles, I might be more jaded now than at the start of summer.)
Agenda?
Not likely.
Journalists letting their personal excitement for one console shine through?
Probably.
Disappointing for those more interesting in other gaming platforms? Definitely.
“Look, I’m not saying it isn’t disappointing. I would like more coverage for Wii games as well, but the difference is that I understand why it’s not there. It’s not some unspoken jealousy or bias inherent in the enthusiast community. The products coming from Nintendo largely aren’t aimed at them.”
I disagree with two things in this statement.
First: Although not jealous, the enthusiast community certainly is biased. Consider the upcoming Medal of Honor game: how is rolling your eyes and saying “finally” unbiased, when this game should provide a unique gaming experience for console systems?
Second: The assessment that Wii products aren’t aimed at the 1UP audience, so Wii lackluster coverage is understandable misses the point. If Wii isn’t their target market, then either: (a) expand their target market and improve the quality of their Wii content, or (b) eliminate the half-assed coverage and focus on the current PS3/360 target market. Trying to keep everyone happy, but some more than others, is a losing affair.
One final thing:
Regarding the “lack of material” to discuss about for Wii, that is silly. Nintendo first-party games are often held quiet… but there are more than enough third-party developers working on projects. There is no problem getting information and interviews from those developers about PS3 and 360 projects. Only a lack of interest could explain why Wii doesn’t see the same efforts being made.
Suggesting that upcoming Wii games don’t fit their bias towards serious games does hold weight, however…
September 27th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Hey Guys I’m new here been lurking for a while but I had to post something on this a little food for thought.
I simply want to pose the question why are people so mad that a supposed majority of Wii owners are “casual” (I hate that term), which for that matter nobody has demonstrated (especially with the huge amount of people who purchased Zelda in North America), but most didn’t care that the vast majority of PS2 owners were casual and only bought one in order to play a couple of hours of Madden (or FIFA in my area) a week?
I find this extremely interesting. Is it Nintendo’s stated purpose of selling to the masses? Or were people a whole lot more patient back then and waited quietly for the 20-30 hour a week games to be developed?
September 27th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
1up has always focused more on Sony and Xbox. Even after the DS Lite hit and the DS was quickly becoming the most popular handheld, 1up’s coverage favored the PSP. So, this is not a surprising move to me.
I am a hardcore gamer, generally spending 3-4 hours a day during the week and more than that on the weekend. I don’t leave home without a handheld system - ever. I bought the Wii exclusively thanks to the promise of more interesting ways to play, Nintendo’s great first party games, the promise of SNK support and some other great games that I know are coming. The VC also played a large role in my decision, since I’m a serious retro gamer. The promise of NeoGeo on the VC has me salivating. When I was making this decision, I looked at several factors: 1. the 360 hardware is faulty and the game library is generally PC/western style games. I prefer arcade and Japanese games and I require quality hardware. 2. The PS3 is overpriced, and I am by no means poor, and it has no games I’m interested in. The Wii/DS combo will keep even the most hardcore player busy.
1up is being very short-sighted here - but they are sister to EGM, which complained about hand-painted backgrounds in Baten Kaitos and eternally lost my respect. A business, whether its a publication or a developer - cannot ignore an industry leader if it wishes to remain successful.
I think the Wii will become the gateway drug of consoles. A few friends of mine have bought a Wii after playing Wii Sports at my house and also picked up several other games while at it. Video games are for everyone; the trick is illustarting how much fun can be had with them.
September 27th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
“Why can’t I “cherry pick” my market?”
People with weak arguments have to cherry pick their data. People with strong arguments use all the data they can.
“Do you deny that casual gamers exist?”
Do you know what an arcade style game is? Where it focuses on pick up and play nature that is easy to learn but hard to master? Apparently not. Casual Pong succeeding over hardcore Computer Space shows who the real cash cow of this industry really is and always will be.
The term “casual games” is saying that these Wii expanded audience games are ABNORMAL to ‘regular gaming’. This is not true. Rather, they are the bread and butter of gaming, they are the ‘regular gaming’ while the huge long games are niche.
“You say it’s the return of arcade style play, but people don’t go to the arcade every day. People go there once every few months, maybe every few weeks at best.”
Dude, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The arcades are dead in America.
“The type of gamer that Nintendo is creating, is not one who anticipates future releases, and visits blogs like these.”
I know Go Nintendo has received an upsurge in traffic with the Wii. RawMeatCowboy has posted emails from those soccer moms. Other sites are surely benefiting as well. But also very important is that many of these new gamers graduate to more complex titles as all the data from Japan showed with the DS phenomenon.
To ignore a potential market and possibilities to grow one’s readership is pretty poor business. But that is OK as the game industry is filled with stupid. You have to laugh at how so many publishers are kicking themselves for not doing what Nintendo did: finding a way to make cheaper games that sell more.
“This is why Nintendo was labled “kiddie”; because to a large extent the label fit.”
So if one said that Xbox is nothing but a Halo box, that would be true since the label ‘fits’? Of course not. Only someone who does not want to pry deep into why the Xbox exists would just sum it up in such a small phrase. This is the same for the Gamecube.
Remember Phil Harrison mocking the DS as he was saying ‘poor Nintendo’ but at least the DS would sell to those who liked Pokemon (little kids). Boy, did he eat major crow on that statement. Had he, and others, had studied Nintendo beyond the ‘kiddie’, the DS would not have been a surprise to him (or to the analysts).
“The products that they truly want - the Halo games and the Final Fantasy games - they’re not done making those.”
Yes they are. The blockbuster Hollywood business model is not sustainable anymore. Look at Final Fantasy sales decline with each game as the costs keep going up.
I am trying to get you to understand that the Hollywood Business model, which the game industry has unwisely been imitating, can no longer work. The Cinema Cycle is coming to an end.
“And as long as there are games magazines like EGM and Game Informer, these will be more associated with video games than whatever you expect the “new wave” of gaming journalism to be.”
Print media said the same about online sites. And online sites said the same about blogs and forums. Viva la disruption.
“but the gamers making up the expanded community that you speak of are never going to have the level of interest to seek out a website, a podcast, a magazine.”
They already are.
“They are not going to go to video game websites, post on blogs, and give more than a few minutes a week worth of thought to video games.”
I am a casual gamer who rarely plays games.
“They own a Wii, they think it’s fun, but they also think Horseshoes is fun, and they don’t spend much time thinking about that either.”
You are insulting them. Don’t you see that hate bounces? The more the ‘hardcore’ hate the expanded audience, the more the mainstream keeps kicking Sony and Microsoft (as E3 2007 coverage showed).
What you must understand is that the games you like are seen as ‘nongames’ to the expanded audience. Where you might see Wii Sports as a waste of time and Halo 3 as the thing, they would see Halo 3 as a waste of time and Wii Sports as the thing.
Hardcore are not kings. They do not define what a game is or should be. The market does. Hardcore do not ring a bell and get what they want on a silver platter. They do not have slaves of developers waiting to do whatever they desire.
“These are not the consumers that will drive the industry.”
They are driving the industry right now. They practically ARE the industry in Japan as well. Wake up.
“And for the record, your attempt at saying that Super Mario Bros. was coming along at a time when the computer RPGS were king is pretty flawed, since Super Mario Bros. is really just a natural progression of some of the most popular video games ever - Pac Man, Defender, Donkey Kong, and Space Invaders. The transition to NES wasn’t nearly as “revolutionary” as you make it out to be.”
Do you even think before you type? Pac Man, Defender, Donkey Kong, and Space Invaders were arcade games. Long epic computer games such as Ultima were NOT ARCADE GAMES. The NES disrupted much of computer gaming at the time. My article “Drowning in the Blue Ocean” goes into this in more detail. What you fail to grasp is that computer gamers thought the Atari and arcade games were for “stupid people” (what hardcore project when they sneer ‘casual gamers’). Computer games overshot the market with their complexity and abstraction. They ignored kids and their families. This allowed a disruptor, Nintendo, to come in. As the NES sold to this ignored demographic, it eventually seeped over and began cannibalizing many of the computer gaming at that time. (Which is why EA jumped all over the Genesis when it came out.)
The Wii is selling to that audience the competitors have overshot and ignored. What will happen is that the Wii will begin cannibalizing much of the Xbox 360 and PS3 software. As Wii becomes market leader, more and more software moves to Wii at the expense of the other systems.
The avalanche is already falling; it is too late for the hardcore pebbles to vote.
September 27th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
*sigh*
“People with weak arguments have to cherry pick their data. People with strong arguments use all the data they can.”
People with strong arguments do not use data that is not appropriate. This conversation is about what coverage is appropriate for Nintendo products on a site like 1UP. Therefore, we look to see what types of games 1UP covers, and the answer is games in the North American market. It’s not cherry picking, it’s using the data appropriate to the problem. That you fail to understand this is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to your misunderstanding of the discussion.
“Do you know what an arcade style game is? Where it focuses on pick up and play nature that is easy to learn but hard to master? Apparently not. Casual Pong succeeding over hardcore Computer Space shows who the real cash cow of this industry really is and always will be.”
I understand what an arcade style game is, and why Pong beat Comptuer Space. I also understand that this was 35 or so years ago, and hardly relevant to this discussion. Maybe Computer Space would have stood a chance if it had PS3 visuals. You can’t say it wouldn’t have, because you don’t know that. You can only surmise, and that doesn’t create truth. It just creates opinion, something you are obviously full of.
“Dude, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The arcades are dead in America.”
That’s my point. If Wii is recreating the arcade experience, and arcades are dying, then what does that say about the future of Wii?
“I know Go Nintendo has received an upsurge in traffic with the Wii. RawMeatCowboy has posted emails from those soccer moms. Other sites are surely benefiting as well. But also very important is that many of these new gamers graduate to more complex titles as all the data from Japan showed with the DS phenomenon.”
Have they recieved an upsurge of traffic that is consistent with the upswing in Nintendo’s business? Has their traffic tripled? Has their traffic reached numbers that were impossible to imagine a year or two ago? If not, then perhaps there are other reasons for their traffic increase, such as enthusiast gamers, checking in to see what Nintendo games are upcoming now that they’re the market leader. What data do you have to support your claim that new gamers are moving on to more complex titles? Perhaps it is happening in Japan, but I am talking about the American market. That is the market I live in, the market I understand, and the market that is relevant to this discussion. Show me increased sales of Metroid Prime 3, and I will agree that new gamers are moving on to complex gaming experiences.
“I am a casual gamer who rarely plays games.”
You are one. One who obviously feels very passionate about the subject. That does not make you a case study for the majority.
“So if one said that Xbox is nothing but a Halo box, that would be true since the label ‘fits’? Of course not. Only someone who does not want to pry deep into why the Xbox exists would just sum it up in such a small phrase. This is the same for the Gamecube.”
If the largest percentage of Xbox titles had the word “Halo” in the name, then yes - it would make that true. As I stated above - the perception that Gamecube was “Kiddie” was due to a higher percentage of all ages titles. The Xbox is percieved as a shooter system due to a higher percentage of games where you shoot things. Perception leads to reality in these cases.
“Yes they are. The blockbuster Hollywood business model is not sustainable anymore. Look at Final Fantasy sales decline with each game as the costs keep going up. I am trying to get you to understand that the Hollywood Business model, which the game industry has unwisely been imitating, can no longer work. The Cinema Cycle is coming to an end.”
If declining sales meant that these types of games were done with, there wouldn’t BE an Xbox 360. Is it not clear to you by now that Microsoft doesn’t care how much money they lose trying to establish the Xbox 360 as a market leader? I will not deny that perhaps these games are becoming more niche, but that doesn’t mean that they are on the way out. How many copies of Halo 3 did they sell this week? How many copies of Bioshock did they sell last month? Maybe the sales of Final Fantasy are declining because they’ve released 13 iterations of the same game, and gamers are catching on. There are other factors in play here that you refuse to recognize.
“Hardcore are not kings. They do not define what a game is or should be. The market does. Hardcore do not ring a bell and get what they want on a silver platter. They do not have slaves of developers waiting to do whatever they desire.”
Again, how many copies of Halo 3 sold this week? Did it outsell Carnival Games? Feel free to point to Wii Play as an example of software being bought en masse by the expanded market, but that is a $10 title being masqueraded as a $50 dollar purchase. Maybe if Halo 3 sold for $60 with a free controller, it would have shattered every record one could shatter.
“They are driving the industry right now. They practically ARE the industry in Japan as well. Wake up.”
We are not talking about Japan, because Japan is a different market, with a different culture. Much of what you are saying has a lot more truth in Japan. Your idea to shrug off the North American market is pretty ridiculous - there’s a lot of money in that market.
“Do you even think before you type? ”
Yes, I think “How can I get Mal to sit down and type 15,000 words trying to make me shut up.” And then I go get an ice cold soda, and take a giant dump on my keyboard. Now who’s throwing hate around?
“The NES disrupted much of computer gaming at the time.”
Show me where, at the time, computer gaming was the norm, and driving the industry. The NES didn’t disrupt anything, because arcade games such as Donkey Kong and Pac Man WERE the industry going in. Your analogy for NES disruption only counts if Super Mario Bros was something new and different to the public, and the industry at large, and it wasn’t. The guys playing Ultima made up a small percentage of the crowd compared to the guys playing Pac Man at their local Pizza Parlor. When you compare that to the number of people who played GTA III in 2002 versus the number of people playing Wii Sports now, obviously the difference is greater now. The Wii has done a good job of disrupting things, sure. But to say that the NES was a meteor that changed the direction of the industry a complete 180 is simply not true. SMB jumpstarted the industry, which was not doing well at the time, but it wasn’t with new ideas, it was with slick execution and amazing gameplay. It was polish on a foundation that was already established.
“The avalanche is already falling; it is too late for the hardcore pebbles to vote.”
Tell that to the 4 million people who bought Halo 3. From One Retailer. Before it even launched. Without a free controller.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:53 am
Man, Jack is so fast to point a finger. If only 360/PS3 fanboys gave a damn about you, your opinion and/or this site.
You are 10 times worst than that guy. I don’t know if your trying to make yourself feel better at the fact that this guy is semi closed minded compared to your completely shut mind.
He reviews games he plays, you talk trash on anything that is not Nintendo or is not Pro-Nintendo and never even play it. Great way to stir up comments however.
Your mentality: All Nintendo games should be 10’s and all 360/PS3 games should be 7.5 or lower for not being Nintendo.
How uninteresting you are, and semi pathetic.
I bet Shiggy plays Halo, would that make you cry or say “God no, it can’t be true!!!!”.
Nintendo is a company making executive decisions and selling to a market. They don’t care about you or your crusade to protect their marketable name. So get over it.
January 3rd, 2008 at 7:07 am
This may be a blast from the past, but Malstrom really tooled ya Drew.
You didn’t even address most of his points and showed a complete lack of understanding about this industry’s history.
And you also whip out Halo 3’s somewhat impressive sales as some kind of cure-all for debate about “hardcore vs. casual.” Till now it sold about 6-7 million worldwide. That’s good, except when you consider it in the whole picture, where Nintendogs and Wii Sports have both sold 17 million copies around the world, along with Brain Training at 10 million and other assorted “dismissed” “non-gamer-non-core-casual” whatever titles. Halo 3 is small potatoes in comparison, especially considering the mega-millions it took to develop and market, whereas Brain Training took a team of 6 guys and 4 months on a budget of $10,000 or so. That’s why Nintendo is pulling in BILLIONS of dollars while Microsoft is losing them, even with highly televised launch line midnight parties.
Halo 3′ 4 million at the launch is squat. Mario 64 sold 11 million and somehow didn’t save its console from a 2nd place finish. I certainly remember magazines that had catered to the SNES hardcores suddenly switching to Playstation in order to welcome the new market.
“I also understand that this was 35 or so years ago, and hardly relevant to this discussion. Maybe Computer Space would have stood a chance if it had PS3 visuals.”
And crap like this just shows your absolutely profound ignorance. Computer Space was basically a university toy/tech demo that required huge mainframes to even run. Pong was a game that ran on an Atari 2600. Only a few people got to even play Computer Space, while Pong was freely available to everyone, which is why everybody remembers Pong and only a few select game historians like Malstrom even remember Computer Space. The very idea that you think VISUALS had something to do with it just shows this point went right over your head and you simply do not understand.
“But to say that the NES was a meteor that changed the direction of the industry a complete 180 is simply not true.”
IT IS TRUE, idiot. The games market CRASHED a year earlier, with most saying the future of games would forever be on the 16-bit computersystems like the Atari ST and the Amiga. They said consoles were not viable ever again. THIS IS ALL DOCUMENTED.
This wasn’t really a fair argument for you. You came in unarmed and tried to bluster your way through it. The pathetic part is that you do not even comprehend how irrelevant you are.