PAX girls panel: “F@*k Princess Peach”
Tuesday, September 9th, 2008 at 8:51pm by Derek
Mario has stomped through galaxies and soared above the clouds to rescue Princess Peach no less than three dozen times over the last 20 years.
But has he ever stopped to consider if the dumb broad is worth the trouble?
This year, the annual Penny Arcade Expo hosted a panel of women from all over the gaming industry for a discussion of women’s issues in gaming, including gender roles in video games and the difficulties of breaking into an industry that is primarily a “boys’ club.”
Linsey Mudrock of the development studio ArenaNet succinctly articulated her dissatisfaction with the traditional “save the princess” archetype.
Obsidian’s Annie Carlson: Nobody likes “luggage” characters that are too stupid to live. All characters need to have something – some really good reason why they’re weak and something really redeeming, like good AI.
ArenaNet’s Linsey Mudrock: F@*k Princess Peach.
Characters such as Peach may cast women as helpless, but do deliberately designed eye candy like SoulCalibur’s Ivy and Tomb Raider’s Lara Croft earn women any more respect? And what of Samus Aran, who until recently has consistently hidden her sex?
Ladies, forget equal pay…how about equal play?
September 9th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Peach isn’t useless- I beat people up with her in SSBB! XD
September 9th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I like this article how this article is two articles about the article two articles below it.
September 9th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
I like this article how this article is two articles about the article two articles below it. lol.
September 9th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
I like this article how this article is two articles about the article two articles below it. LOL
September 9th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Linsey Mudroc is a POSER. I guess she hasn’t actually played any Nintendo games since the NES days, if any at all.
I own with Princess Peach in Mario Kart. Support my arse.
Anyways, frivolous point made by this wannabe gamer.
Yeah, a good bickering AI would be welcome… *hides from all women, including my wife.*
September 9th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Fuck Princess Peach? Now you’re speakin’ my language!
September 10th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Some people need to lighten up. It’s just a game.
September 10th, 2008 at 12:11 am
As air-headed and stereotypical as Peach is, she’s a gaming icon and to use her as a bad example in this day and age of gaming is borderline desperate.
Mind you, I’m a huge advocate of girl gamers and women in gaming, and I like strong female characters in popular culture and media. Don’t get me wrong at all. I just think Peach is a bit of a sacred cow, really. The original Super Mario Bros. and Donkey Kong (as well as the first Legend of Zelda, now that I’m on the subject) were created in a time where games had very simple story-lines, and something as storybook as being a knight in shining (red and blue) armor saving his fair lady was the perfect fit. The characters just happen to live on to this day and their old, simplistic stories are a source of nostalgia, while largely irrelevant in the unfortunate “hardcore” phase that many gamers find themselves in currently. And while Peach is a bit of an object, a trophy, a goal, she represents and era of gaming that is sadly in the red zone right now. If anything, we should be bowing at her feet.
Furthermore, the fact that Peach actively plays all kinds of sports like Tennis, Baseball, Soccer (or Football, if you’re like the rest of the world), and even competes at the Olympics really is a step forward from being a damsel in distress. Hell, she even has her own DS title where the tables are turned and she has to save Mario instead (though that game was kinda…hrm…).
There are plenty of other wonderful female characters (some even leads) in gaming that are worth looking up to and taking note.
Take Jade, for instance (protagonist from the critically acclaimed “Beyond Good & Evil). We have a strong female character who has spent her life watching after a whole gaggle of beings in her lighthouse in the midst of a particularly nasty intergalactic war. She makes a decent living with her freelance photography and reporting with her good friend P’eyj (please tell me I spelled that right, it’s been a while). In the end, she uncovers a conspiracy and saves the world – admirable enough, right?
How about Princess Zelda? In Ocarina of Time, she assumed the role of a stealthy male just to help Link save Hyrule from Ganondorf’s clutches, endangering herself in the process. In Twilight Princess…well, she wasn’t doing so hot in that game, but I digress…
Speaking of Twilight Princess, how about Midna? One of the most charming characters in video games I’ve ever encountered, male or female, Midna makes it her goal to save her people from the usurper of her throne, Zant. She kind of uses Link in the process, but gains morals in the end. And hey, who doesn’t love a character that grows internally?
And Samus Aran is a great female in gaming, despite your example. She’s strong, skillful, crafty, independent, and all-around bad ass without being unlikable. I think the fact that her gender/appearance has remained such a mystery to many until recently is Nintendo’s way of saying “F*** you Mountain Dew Game Fuel-drinking frat boys, Samus Aran is a woman and she’ll kick your ass if you so much as look at her wrong.” And personally, I love it.
Also, I should add that I feel Lara Croft has taken a more practical, realistic perspective since her re-invention in Legend. It’s not all about the boobs anymore, fellas. Lara is rich, successful, very smart,, well-read, cool and collected, well-trained in all sorts of martial arts and combat styles – including extensive gun play – and is a very motivated character. I say she’s a damn good role model. The fact that she happens to be designed attractively is absolutely a moot point.
So there you have it. I’m sure there are tons of others I could pull from (I know there are, in fact), but this is what I have off the top of my head. Females are more prevalent in gaming than some seem to credit, and it’s time folks realized that, gamer guys and militant female-gamers alike.
September 10th, 2008 at 12:11 am
LOL
September 10th, 2008 at 12:42 am
Oh, and I hate to rant even further (because it’s clear that I’ve taken up tons of Infendo’s space already with my last comment), but couldn’t this issue be look at as a double-standard?
I mean sure, the “oppressed female gamer” can complain all day about how even the strongest of female video game characters are treated as objects of fantasy amongst the many male gamers playing said games, but I can’t the same be said of male characters in games to some extent?
I’m not one to add fuel to the fire so be aware that this is for a matter of perspective and nothing more, but I’m not 6′5″, I don’t have incredibly toned muscles, I can’t handle a gun, I’ve never slunk my way into a terrorist’s fortress or blasted the head off of an alien, I’ve never joined (nor do I intend to join) any part of the military, I can’t fly a jet, or conversely, I am not an ultra-pretty anime magical knight and I don’t wield a sword, Ive never saved a kingdom, I can’t ride a horse, my hair isn’t blue or purple or green, I’m not skinny enought to stab you every time I hug you…the list goes on and on. And yet, as an owner of an Xbox360 and a PS2 (in addition to my Wii and such), I’ve seen plenty of characters like these, generic action heroes and mystical knights who fit all of the stereotypes and many of the fantasies that could potentially be held as admiration and objectification from a female gaming audience. And it’s very rare that you see a somewhat flabby, young adult geek artist saving the world in games. If I wanted to raise hell and call bull, I could. But I don’t. Because I know better. I know there are legitimate examples that counter my argument, and I realize that the games we play are just that – games. They are a form of entertainment and sort of a form of escapism, just like movies, just like books, just like comics, even just like music in many ways.
So why bitch and moan, really?
September 10th, 2008 at 1:23 am
I think the main problem with these daffy “gamer girls” is the same problem with second wave feminism clashing with third wave feminism.
In that, we’ve seemed to have demonized anything girly or pink or graceful or gentle in girls and women because they have been taught by their (understandably) mothers and fathers that they have to be egalitarian in every respect, even things that don’t make sense (like bathrooms and such). They have instead been forced to adopt (or at least consider) the just as oppressive masculine value set of ambition, accomplishment, physical strength, competitiveness, dominance, and stoicism, because that is what the second wave feminists that was “being equal.”
And this all crashed when the third wave feminists thought that maybe they should try to find a way to make the genders equal in respect (and pay) and care less about “winning” or “slaying dragons.” (such as the patriarchy.) To sum it up, wearing dresses was fine, high heels are fine, not every man you see is part of the patriarchy, we aren’t all rapists, etc.
What’s bad about what this “gamer girl” actually did here is she kept alive the old, competitive meat-grinder values that she will never fully succeed with and supports the very institutions she says she is fighting.
Of course, touching gender issues is like the third rail among gamers. It’s really best to stay out of it.
and Andrew, great posts, but be wary of what you are doing when you value female characters that can “kick your ass.” That’s the stereotypical male value set. Just be sure you aren’t worshipping a man that happens to have boobs.
September 10th, 2008 at 2:30 am
@Jeff
Great post, actually pretty nice. Man with boobs can still work around poles.
Annnnnyway, all jokes aside. Peach really doesn’t help herself by wearing pink, and like to be grabbed by the boozers (even her own bastard kid, you know who I am talking about) ALL THE TIME.
I play games because I want to, not b/c I need to prove anything to anyone, so if I need a slutty female sex maniac, who likes to be civil under the day light, and deplorable under the sheet, and who happen to be my professor, then forget you all, I am going to make that scenario come true by playing a game that is inspired by a gamer who has a similar fantasy.
Finally, the modern feminism is all BS. I am not a 7+ feet tall, 300+ pound muscular titan of a man, but I will be damned if the next big FPS doesn’t have a hero who doesn’t look like that. And you know what? It will be awesome.
September 10th, 2008 at 2:32 am
Lindsay is probably a lesbian, not the good kind either.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:02 am
No one cares she is a character. If you have to go after peach to assume your worth then you must suck at being a woman.
September 10th, 2008 at 7:45 am
@ TBlack:
please don’t drag things down to that level. It’s just disappointing on a decent site. GameSpot or Cubed3 would welcome your phobic waffle.
September 10th, 2008 at 10:40 am
@Kaptain M’bargo
Um… Gamespot admin bashed me just for saying someone should slap themselves for being silly. I seriously doubt that they would tolerate as much as you think.
Anyway, back on topic…
September 10th, 2008 at 11:48 am
@ Jeff:
I liked the end of your post. That was actually quite funny. ^_^
I should clarify that I don’t think all women should be super-tough and strong, and I don’t listen to “She Works Hard for the Money” while standing outside of abortion clinics picking off protesters with my shotgun (I don’t have a shotgun, but I’m pro-choice, but whatever). I think there’s a lot to be said for grace and beauty in a woman (in the same way I don’t think every guy should be expected to go to the gym and work out 5 hours a day, seven days a week, learn Judo and Karate, and buy one of those awful Hummers just to impress a lady).
I just think it’s important that people who make the argument that characters who have certain stereotypes attached to them understand that this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. These characters are designed and written a specific way for a specific reason, and largely, they tap into the fantasies of the people playing these games mainly to make a sale. We (all of us, male and female) should enjoy it for what it is.
Oh, and I want to add that Lindsay Mudrock was probably only speaking derogatorily of Princess Peach jokingly, because we all know it’s very easy to take things out of context when speech is put into writing. However, it’s pretty good as a spark for a debate, so I took it and ran with it.
@TBlack: I think that was pretty uncalled for.
September 10th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
LEAVE PEACH ALONE!!!
But seriously, I don’t see what the problem is. I don’t think Nintendo is trying to say that they honestly feel that all women are fluffy pink dress-wearing ditzes. I doubt that anyone who knows who Princess Peach is thinks that this is a representation of all women. That’s just who Peach is. That’s her character.
I really wouldn’t want to see a new Nintendo game where Peach is sporting a power suit and taking on the evil world of men.
To me, video games are not about reality. If all characters weren’t extreme versions of something, what would make them interesting?
Like Andrew G. and others said, it goes the same for men. Most male game characters are extreme versions as well. They’re not a real representation of what the average man is.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
A while back in the forums, this was brought up in a thread and I was quite adamant about the subject. But since then, I’ve been thinking a lot about it, with a lot of insight from my boyfriend.
It really is a double-standard. Women are expected to be pretty and either ditzy or tomboyish-kick-your-butt types. Men are the Mr. Universe versions of buff fearless heroes.
Really, it’s not that big a deal. If you have a fantasy world, why not make everything fantastical and idyllic if the game creators want to, it’s their world, after all.
And if girls (or boys) don’t like it. Then by golly, DON’T PLAY IT.
If you really are worried about women’s or men’s rights, do it IRL, and not in game, because it’ll make a bigger impression out there.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
peach is peach and not all woman want to be masculine or want to fight in video games (life whatever it may be). i have a daughter and as hard as i try to get her into things i like & liked (star wars, anime, video games, legos, guns, cars & sports) she will have nothing to do with it. i wouldn’t mind a tom boy who plays sports and wants to hang with dad and her uncles, but she was her own person and had her own personality from the get go. if it doesn’t have pink she won’t wear it. she loves baby dolls and putting on make-up like her mom. sometimes i think society tries to change the fundamentals of our humanity. there are sutble differences between the sexes no matter how you want to slice it. our minds and actions run on different tracks. just because a woman can be soft spoken, gentle, and nuturing doesn’t mean she can’t be a bitch when push comes to shove nor does it mean she can’t do the same things a man can. maybe they can, but don’t want to be butch. i don’t want to curl up at night next to a burly, hairy, rough around the edges woman. i guess basically what i’m saying in terms of money, jobs, education, & social standing we are equal (like i said i have a daughter with another one on the way and i’ll be damned if anyone tells them they are not equal), but when it comes to femininity let a woman be a woman.
September 10th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
I’ve actually been thinking about this while I was walking today, and I wanted to clarify something I said earlier.
I wrote of the many strong qualities of several female characters to which Jeff responded:
“and Andrew, great posts, but be wary of what you are doing when you value female characters that can “kick your ass.” That’s the stereotypical male value set. Just be sure you aren’t worshipping a man that happens to have boobs.
”
I guess I should have made it clearer when I made that list of upstanding video game females. I didn’t mean that I want manly women with guns a’blazing running around shooting aliens and being bitchy. I meant that the qualities I listed were good, strong qualities that make a better, more well-rounded individual regardless of gender. The attributes I listed (most of them, anyway) were of positive, determined characters who had really made something of themselves instead of just being rough and tough for the sake of being rough and tough.
Honestly, I’m not even sure why I’m taking this topic as seriously as I am. I guess it’s just one that interests me because a lot of people have the wrong idea about games in general, and the stereotype that video games are aimed specifically at a male audience is just such a dead horse. Plus, there’s so much to say about the subject.